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Tha_Stepside
05-24-2007, 05:34 PM
Im interested in using sperical bearing rod ends with threaded roundstock to replace my tie-rod ends for my tie rod and drag link on my 78' F150. I will be drilling a 3/4" hole in each steering knuckle (where the tie-rod ends go through the bottom) and in the pitman arm, and ill be placing the new tie or on top of the knuckle, with the drag link on top of that. Ill use a long 3/4" capscrews to bolt down the new drag-link and new tie rod. This will raise the steering apparatus about 2" and hopefully will increase steering leverage by reducing the angle of the drag link. Anyone have any positive experiences with this kind of setup, will it be DOT legal for the road? The rod ends i will be using are these; http://aurora.thomasnet.com/item/al-industrial-rod-ends-spherical-bearings-rod-ends/cm-cb-series-male-rod-ends-general-purpose-economy/cm-12?&seo=110

m j
05-24-2007, 06:09 PM
legality is subject to interpretation.
carry something from the rod end manufacturer that states they can be used for steering and suspension

Little Mule
05-24-2007, 06:27 PM
Have you checked these two systems.
http://broncograveyard.com/bronco/i-22718_rock-proof_heim_joint_steering_system.htm
http://broncograveyard.com/bronco/i-22716_trail-proof_heim_joint_steering_system.htm

pumpkin
05-24-2007, 06:41 PM
They are not dot legal.

Little Mule
05-24-2007, 06:51 PM
They are not dot legal.

Were did you get that info. I have look the government inspection regs. and don't see anywhere that says they're not legal or even a reference to them.

I'd like to now for sure cause I was thinking of using some.

m j
05-24-2007, 07:52 PM
it is easy to find someone that says shit is illegal
they say it about stainless brakelines most of the time too, but they are legal

Apathy
05-24-2007, 08:36 PM
Ok, your talking about running Heim joints on your steering. Technically Heim joints are not allowed on steering setups. However, I dare you to find a cop who knows the differance. I have done exactly what you are talkig about.
I took my 78 ford tie rod off (cause its under the knuckle) drilled the tapered holes to 3/4". I used 1.5" x .25 DOM as the link. (do not go lighter than this, as mine is bent! and other lighter versions have failed). The upside, is that it gets you 2" on the tie rod. Downside is that Heim joints wear out faster. I changed mine on the trail last weekend and it was easy. is it something like this that you are thinking?
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/87pathy/DSCF0405.jpg

pumpkin
05-24-2007, 08:46 PM
Were did you get that info. I have look the government inspection regs. and don't see anywhere that says they're not legal or even a reference to them.

I'd like to now for sure cause I was thinking of using some.


section 4-3 " does noy meet OEM specifications"

killman
05-24-2007, 08:51 PM
Ok, your talking about running Heim joints on your steering. Technically Heim joints are not allowed on steering setups. However, I dare you to find a cop who knows the differance. I have done exactly what you are talkig about.
I took my 78 ford tie rod off (cause its under the knuckle) drilled the tapered holes to 3/4". I used 1.5" x .25 DOM as the link. (do not go lighter than this, as mine is bent! and other lighter versions have failed). The upside, is that it gets you 2" on the tie rod. Downside is that Heim joints wear out faster. I changed mine on the trail last weekend and it was easy. is it something like this that you are thinking?
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/87pathy/DSCF0405.jpg

The cop isn't the problem it would be when you were in a crash and killed some one!

Apathy
05-24-2007, 08:53 PM
this reg is a misnomer, because heim joints exceed oem specs. You will not find a TRE that is load rated. All heim joints are load rated

Apathy
05-24-2007, 08:57 PM
The cop isn't the problem it would be when you were in a crash and killed some one!

are you implying that this isnt safe? Its completely safe. (if you do your maintanance).
Look, I work with inspectors, engineers, bla bla bla,and you won't find one of them who would know the application difference. As far as an engineer is concerned, it is just fine. Load rated, and all.

Little Bandit
05-24-2007, 11:29 PM
Those rod ends are basically the lowest quality ones you can get. We got some similar ones in at my work and returned them because they are really thin around the ball, and are steel on steel. I wouldn't expect them to hold up to a lot, especially with anything in tension. You should be able to get some better ones for only a couple of buck more.

The problem with that set-up above is that you are putting a lot of bending forces into that bolt since that upper link is so high. I bet you can see it bending as you load it up. The other set-up where one is above and one is below is a better way of doing it as the bolt basically won't see any bending forces.

Also, that bolt has no locking mechanism on it, if it loosens up and backs off due to vibrations, etc, the bolt will fall out. At a minimum it should have a second nut, or nylock. Really it should have a cotter pin or safety wire on it.

I worked on a race car where the bolt was reveresed (head on top) and the nut came off, luckily the bolt stayed in place. The driver drove probably about 15 minutes with it like that before he came into the pits.

m j
05-25-2007, 06:39 AM
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/87pathy/DSCF0405.jpg


I dont like anything about that steering

Apathy
05-25-2007, 07:07 AM
been running that steering for a year.

The bolt is the other way, there is a lock on it now, those Heim's (yes they are the cheaper ones) are load rated at 18K lbs. I have hung the front of my rig on the tie rod. (that picture was my original mock up)

I understand your worries, and if you look in the pic, the reason there is such an angle on the drag link is because the springs are out and the radius arm on that side is not in.

Do your regular maintanance and if its not a daily driver, i wouldn't worry about it. I carry spare Heimies and when i feel they are worn, i change them.

bakelite
05-25-2007, 07:14 AM
We use rod ends like that at work a lot and maintenance is a HUGE issue with them, they don't hold grease and need to be greased constantly to make them last. Heim has become a generic term for that sort of rod end. I would like them better if they had a boot around them to maintain lubrication at all times.


I think any DOT inspector that knows anything will recognize that as illegal pretty quick so avoid road blocks.

Apathy
05-25-2007, 07:21 AM
either spider trax or poison spyder makes gease boots for them.
The ones i run in the rear have a lower angle possibility and are self lubricating. wailed on it for a year now and no signs of wear.

Stock ford tie rod is inverted so the nut is on top. Same problem if the nut comes off, you could drop your tie rod. And as stated, you WILL NOT find a load rating on TRE's. My rear Hiemies are 28k lb static load and the front ones are 18k lbs. The fronts will be changed when all my spares are worn out. I have a comlete other set of spares of the lighter one. So until they are all gone, i'll run those. When they are gone, i'll be getting some new 28k lb greasable ones. (boots and Hi pressure low clearance aircraft grease nipples).

bakelite
05-25-2007, 07:32 AM
Just curious, not running down your shit. How do you mean self lubricating? Do they have an oil impregnated UHMW cup they ride in?

Are the grease boots available meant for usage on rod ends for steering on a street vehicle?

Wouldn't a castle nut and cotter pin be better to hold it together?


Interesting stuff. [36] [cheers]

Apathy
05-25-2007, 07:44 AM
Self lubricating--- see spec on the heimies. image attached.
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/87pathy/heim.jpg

Boots for heimies. See here
http://www.spidertrax.com/s.nl/sc.2/category.38/.f

And if you go to https://www.spydercustoms.com/index2.php

You will see they sell Heim joints for steering

Apathy
05-25-2007, 07:46 AM
Something to remember guys. I don't do this stuff Nilly Willy. I'm the guy who gets to tell engineers when they are wrong. Alot of thought and research went into this. Unless you want to spend 250 bucks each on high stear knuckles, and another 500 on all the associated arms studs and what not, this is the only way to go. No other choise

bakelite
05-25-2007, 07:56 AM
Sorry man, don't take what I posted wrong, I am actually interested and I know you know your shit. Thanks for the info, it's good stuff. I was mainly curious for work related uses. We have a couple applications where the self lubricating ones would be excellent and the boots I never even knew about and I think they are a great idea except the PM guys would have to actually manually manipulate them to see if there is any wear rather than just glancing at them. :vroam: [15]




.....and basically aren't engineers always wrong? ;)

Apathy
05-25-2007, 08:00 AM
I don't take much to offence. Plus, I know what i'm talking about so i'm confident.
Its always good to learn, and since somebody called me on it, i got to post good information!

Tha_Stepside
05-25-2007, 09:00 AM
Ok, your talking about running Heim joints on your steering. Technically Heim joints are not allowed on steering setups. However, I dare you to find a cop who knows the differance. I have done exactly what you are talkig about.
I took my 78 ford tie rod off (cause its under the knuckle) drilled the tapered holes to 3/4". I used 1.5" x .25 DOM as the link. (do not go lighter than this, as mine is bent! and other lighter versions have failed). The upside, is that it gets you 2" on the tie rod. Downside is that Heim joints wear out faster. I changed mine on the trail last weekend and it was easy. is it something like this that you are thinking?
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f138/87pathy/DSCF0405.jpg

That is exactly what im thinking of, im sick of my tie rods and drag links wearing out and them being a pain to change, plus i think its a really kool setup.

Tha_Stepside
05-25-2007, 09:13 AM
In my field of work (Heavy Mechanic) I see tons of these used as Hydraulic rod ends and trust me, they take WAYYYY more abuse on a hydro system then they would take on a 1/2 ton pickup with a 4" lift and 35" tires. As long as they get greased (i do lube job on my truck every two weeks) and the proper care is taken when installing them, i dont see where DOT can catch you on these. I mean they must be rated for well over OEM rod specs. Im not going to weld threads on the end of the rods, im gonna have Mearls Machine shop in K-town drill holes on each end of the round stock and thread them accordingly (one LH and the other RH) then do my alignment and lock the nuts in place.

Tha_Stepside
05-25-2007, 09:41 AM
But my biggest issue is wether or not they would be ok for a daily driver, if i say opted for the better heavy-duty rod ends. I would be doing the over/under set-up as well with the drag link being on top and the tie rod on the bottom of the knuckle.

Apathy
05-25-2007, 10:37 AM
Make sure you get good quality Heimie's like the ones that i posted. They are not the best for your drag link, cause they do not have a high degree of misalignment. However, they will work perfect for you tie rod.
Puttin 1 under and 1 over is a better idea, than what i had, but i do alot of rock crawling and wanted it up as high as possible. Aslo, to keep my drag link angle correct in relation to my pan hard.

As a daily driver.. sure you can. But, as stated it there is an accident, and somebody really knows there shit, and they want to be an ass then you may be in trouble. I drive mine on the road, but only to get to the trail.

Apathy
05-25-2007, 10:39 AM
I mean they must be rated for well over OEM rod specs.


i dare you to find the OEM specs. I never have

bakelite
05-25-2007, 01:53 PM
The thing is if DOT saw them it wouldn't mean anything to them what the specs are, it would simply be that they are not OEM and therefore, to the DOT, not legal.

Stetson
05-25-2007, 04:25 PM
The thing is if DOT saw them it wouldn't mean anything to them what the specs are, it would simply be that they are not OEM and therefore, to the DOT, not legal.

[iagree]

Stetson
05-25-2007, 04:32 PM
it is easy to find someone that says shit is illegal
they say it about stainless brakelines most of the time too, but they are legal

not all are. do your homework before providing a less informed person. and don't take that personal. there is a difference in how the flex line is crimped to the hard line. look for the ones that are approved, they are marked and have a DOT #. [cheers]

m j
05-25-2007, 08:25 PM
not all are. do your homework before providing a less informed person. and don't take that personal. there is a difference in how the flex line is crimped to the hard line. look for the ones that are approved, they are marked and have a DOT #. [cheers]
right back at ya
the regs require a crimp, a line down the length, and the manufacturers name or symbol to be legal
there was no number requirement in the regs that I have seen
homework was done

I disagree with the Canadian regs for brake lines and propane lines

Little Bandit
05-25-2007, 09:48 PM
In my field of work (Heavy Mechanic) I see tons of these used as Hydraulic rod ends and trust me, they take WAYYYY more abuse on a hydro system then they would take on a 1/2 ton pickup with a 4" lift and 35" tires. As long as they get greased (i do lube job on my truck every two weeks) and the proper care is taken when installing them, i dont see where DOT can catch you on these. I mean they must be rated for well over OEM rod specs. Im not going to weld threads on the end of the rods, im gonna have Mearls Machine shop in K-town drill holes on each end of the round stock and thread them accordingly (one LH and the other RH) then do my alignment and lock the nuts in place.

I work with hydraulics and tend to agree. The problem you get into with rod ends is when you don't maintain them. I've seen cases where they get worn and sloppy and the operaters continues to bash away with them. Eventually it will break up the outer race, then ovalizes the housing till it splits near the top.

I think with the set-up above, like 87Pathy has shown, if its a trail rig only which is maintained you will be more than fine. I still believe you will be able to see the bolt bend 1/16"-1/8" if you stall the tire against a curb/rock, but I wouldn't be worried about it failing catastropically. If you have it as a daily driver, and basically install it and forget about it, without a locking mechanism, then you will get into trouble.

Just curious, not running down your shit. How do you mean self lubricating? Do they have an oil impregnated UHMW cup they ride in?

A lot of the bronze raced bearings are oil impregnated, much like bronze oilite bushing and such.

I would like them better if they had a boot around them to maintain lubrication at all times.

I haven't really seen any rod ends with boots (haven't looked) but if you are staking/pressing bearings into welded housings you can get sealed spherical bearings.

Do you get your rod ends from McMaster? They are pretty expensive for a lot of stuff, I don't know where you are located, but there are bearing places that can bring them in for you, Ringball, Commercial Solutions, BC bearings? Bearings and Transmissions? (Don't know about the last two) I would think they would all be cheaper.

I used 1.5" x .25 DOM as the link. (do not go lighter than this, as mine is bent! and other lighter versions have failed).

How did they fail? I can't see them failing due to tension. Maybe the crossover would buckle, but not the drag link. The most obvious form of failure to me would be hitting a rock,etc, which would be the only reason why you would need such a thick wall. I am curious to what size of material is used for links, and why, as I would like to build something for future projects.

cj5sean
05-26-2007, 12:05 AM
A nice company that makes them is called evolution machine in calgary big coin but compleatly rebuildable and top quality therse a link to their web site in pirate4x4 also arora wich i think you can order up at bc bearings make good ones.

Tha_Stepside
05-26-2007, 09:06 AM
yeah i stopped by BC bearing and they can get me what i need. Thanks for your input guys, im stoked to try this set-up out, if i get pulled over by DOT and have to remove it....Anyone got a spair pair of knuckles for a 78-79 Ford HPD44?

Apathy
05-28-2007, 08:17 AM
Ok,
to answer a few questions. Mcmaster car is the easiest place to get them, because you can go through what they have and buy the ones with the specs you want.

Tie rods, buckle. I have seen many of them using 120 wall and they bend very easily on a rock. I hung the front of my rig on the tie rod, on a rock.

You wont' see any more than .065 defection. the over all hight of that assebmbly is only 2". and i baby my stearing since its the pitman arm i'm worried about.

m j
05-28-2007, 07:40 PM
yeah i stopped by BC bearing and they can get me what i need. Thanks for your input guys, im stoked to try this set-up out, if i get pulled over by DOT and have to remove it....Anyone got a spair pair of knuckles for a 78-79 Ford HPD44?

I have a bunch from broncos

strong_like_tractor
05-31-2007, 04:20 PM
The deal is that a heim joint is operating in a single shear - ie the joint isn't captured on both sides of the sleeve. That's the biggest reason for them not being DOT approved. The joint may be stronger then a TRE but it isn't held in place as well because you are relying on a bolt passing through a hole that has to be slightly oversized to allow it to fit. If your bolt has the slightest amount of play in it it will ovalize the hole in the knuckle. With a TRE you have a self holding taper as well as a nut with a cotter pin just in case.

JP

Apathy
06-03-2007, 09:03 AM
I saw my same set up on some hard core rigs yesterday, and on a competition buggy by longs...

wonder why they run that stuff if its not as good?

StinkFinger
06-03-2007, 11:43 AM
so hers the isue with heims as i have found from my experiance a tre has a high rate short spring inside it designed to take up slop as it wears. a heim dose not. as it whears the tolerances between the ball and race increase so now insted of being subject to aa pushing force it now has an ever increasing hammering force on it . i was amazed at the rate that they ware and the cost why not just step up to a bigger tre


and that steering setup is scary you should find some way to brace up the top of that bolt

m j
06-03-2007, 11:56 AM
put the tie rod under and the draglink over the knuckle at least
better yet put the steering up on the knuckle and convert (8 lugs are flattop)

Apathy
06-04-2007, 02:41 PM
ya, i'll get right on that. As soon as somebody give me the money, oh ya and the new wheels, and the new rear dive shafts to match the bolt pattern.

If you think that my steering is shaddy, go look under a stock toyota:dontknow: [wako]

and by the time you go to a bigger TRE from the top side, whats worse, a bolt or the thin wall on your knuckle where it will attach?

anyway, i run it, don't like it? don't do it then

bakelite
06-04-2007, 02:44 PM
[f] ........ ouchies.......;)