PDA

View Full Version : Need some advice please.....


Magna
11-17-2003, 05:33 PM
So here's me, finally getting back to my engine swap on Sunday....thinking that all I have to do is swap-in the distributor, flip-er upside-down, and install the new oil pickup tube and screen.
Then I'll be ready to bolt in the new engine.

So I swap the distributor to the new (smirk...'new', he says)...being sure to time it properly (hopefully).

Then I'm looking at the new engine and a problem suddenly jumps out at me.

First, I should give you a little background so you might understand what goes on in my little brain cells.



My original engine is an '86 Chevy V6 2.8 liter. The 'new' one is from an '87 2WD S10 Blazer.
The original uses a V-belt system, the new one uses a serpentine system.
The original is externally balanced (at least, that's my understanding), the new one is internally balanced.

I was thinking that being a serpentine system isn't a problem because the crank pulley, fan pulley, and tensioners are still on the engine. I was thinking that I just need to buy a new belt.

So here's the problem. I suddenly realized that the new engine is lacking the alternator bracket. (Remember, this is late Sunday afternoon when I'm doing this)
Hmmmmm....now what? Do I wait until next weekend (that's the earliest that I could make it) and go to PYP and hope that I find the right bracket? Seems like kind of a slim chance anyway. Besides, even if I found a bracket, then I'd need to find the right pulley for my alternator. Also, the alternator and AC pump have switched sides between the two years. So I'm thinking that might present a problem with my wiring harness.

Or..............

Do I swap the brackets from my old engine onto the new engine. Problem is, that involves changing the waterpump and crankshaft pulley too. At the time, that seemed to make the most sense to me.

So I swapped over the brackets. I swapped over my air pump. I was getting ready to swap over the water pump....when I discover.......
The water pump bolts also hold on the timing cover. I look it up in a manual, and yup...I need to make a special bracket to hold the timing cover in place before I can pull the water pump. Crap!!

Add to the headache...I can't get the fucking fan / pulley unbolted. Time to break out the grinder, and grind the bolts off.

Then a thought occured to me. Maybe I don't have to change the water pump! Maybe...maybe...it's the same pump. All I gotta do is get the fucking pulley / fan off so I can compare the pumps.
Then...it occurs to me that they might not be even close to the same pumps.

So here's a question: Does the waterpump from my old V-belt system turn in the same direction as the waterpump on the new serentine driven engine???



On to the next problem.

My old engine is externally balanced, I'm lead to believe. I'm also lead to believe that it is balanced using the flexplate.
I've been told that the new engine is internally balanced. I figured this won't be a problem because I've got the whole engine...from the crank pulley to the flexplate.

But now that I have to pull the crank pulley, will I also have to change the flexplate? Will this re-establish engine balance? Can I leave the harmonic balancer on the new engine, or do I also swap my old harmonic balancer?

How do I stop the engine from turning while trying to loosen the crank pulley? Will I damage the flexplate by clamping a visegrip on it?

If a picture says a thousand words....
The first is my old engine. The second is the new engine.

Old Engine.
Image Insert:
http://www.funinbc.com/forum/uploaded/magna/20031117233112_CrankPulley_old.jpg
83.77KB
New Engine.


Image Insert:
http://www.funinbc.com/forum/uploaded/magna/20031117233145_CrankPulley_new.jpg
65.35KB


Lastly, does anyone have a puller I could borrow? And a nut splitter might make it easier to get the fucking fan pulley off.
Thanks in advance for the help.


OFF-CAMBER
I have all the answers......as long as I get to ask the questions.

boyzen
11-17-2003, 07:12 PM
Water pump is the same just a diffrent pulley.You should use an impact to pull the bolt for the crank pulley so you dont damage the flex plate.I think you are on the right track,dont use the serpentine system.If you need pulleys or anything i will most likely have them in my shop.Oh dont pull the harmonic balancer either it is matched for the motor.you can call me 765- 9863.good luck.[51]

Shit always happens

Magna
11-18-2003, 08:04 PM
Not that I don't trust you Boyzen, but because I'd heard that the waterpump from a serpentine system turns the opposite direction from the v-belt, I decided to get another opinion.

I phoned a local GM dealership's service dept. today. I explained what I was doing and asked if I did need to change the pump.

Get this answer:

He tells me that: "yes, I would need to change the waterpump."
Then he continues with: "you'll also need to change all the brackets, timing cover, intake manifold, throttle body, etc."

I'm thinking: "WTF ?? Do you know anything??? Now I don't believe anything you'd tell me." Instead of saying that, I ask him why I would need to change all the other stuff, especially the intake.

He says: "Because that's the way we'd do it"







Ummmmmmm..........ok then. Thanks for the info....ya tard !![11]

So I call a mechanic that I've used for years, and I trust. He tells me that he's never done this swap, isn't sure...but will get back to me. At least he's willing to admit when he's not sure about something. I'd rather hear that than false information.

He calls me back and confirms that I do need to swap waterpumps.




Now I just need to figure out how to make the custom bracket to hold the timing cover in place. Would sure be nice to have a bandsaw and drillpress.

OFF-CAMBER
I have all the answers......as long as I get to ask the questions.

FU Toolbag
11-18-2003, 11:14 PM
If the pump pully is smooth it turns opposit. If it has groves, it turnd with the crank. That ruke isn't always true, but for most older american ones it's usually true. Why not take off the timing cover and check out their shape as well? If you put a long bolt in one of the holes on the flexplate and turn it till it contacts the block. I got an electric impact if you need it. Does the pully unbolt from the ballancer?

OKOR[f]
72 super beatle
1 lwb Sammi- 2.4 deisel
1 lwb sammi "avalanch"
1 suzuki lj 80- toy axles, 2.3 turbo power
1 69 tlc- straight frame, 350 power
1 75 tlc-custom everything
1 76 tlc-stock, not for long
1 80 bronko-efi460-sycadelic.
1 98 FJ40, 4 tones'o'fun

boyzen
11-19-2003, 03:26 AM
I guess i just learned something new i wouldnt have even thought they would fuck up an change direction of the water pump.

Shit always happens

85_GMC_4x4
11-19-2003, 07:52 AM
.

85_GMC_4x4
11-19-2003, 07:54 AM
I'm confused Magna.. Why not just stick with the serpintine system? Seems like it'd be easiest to fab up some sort of alternator bracket. Or just purchase the proper one. The wiring would be easy to fix...especially for someone like you.

85 GMC 3/4T 4x4
7" BDS suspension lift
35" Mickey Thompson Baja Claw Tires
Dual fuel propane/gas
Locked rear axle
Smiley face painted on diff cover

OFF CAMBER

Broncoo
11-19-2003, 01:17 PM
my 5.0L has a reverse rotation pump aswell

Magna
11-19-2003, 08:18 PM
quote:Originally posted by 85_GMC_4x4

I'm confused Magna.. Why not just stick with the serpintine system? Seems like it'd be easiest to fab up some sort of alternator bracket. Or just purchase the proper one. The wiring would be easy to fix...especially for someone like you.
It was more about timing than anything. This was Sunday afternoon. At the time, I knew it would be next weekend before I could get out to PYP. And even then, only hope to find the bracket at PYP or any other wrecker. Plus, I'd need the new alt pulley....good luck finding that in a wrecking yard too. I suspect it'd likely be a part to order from a dealer.

I figured it would only take a few minutes to swap over my brackets....true enough.
I also figured it would only take a few minutes to swap over the water pump...also true until I discovered that I need to make a bracket to hold the timing cover in place. But by the time I discovered that, I'd already swapped the brackets over and bought the waterpump gasket.

So now I just need to borrow OKOR's puller and electric impact gun.
The bracket is nothing to make IF you've got the tools...which I don't....I need a chunk of 3/8" flat stock...125mm x 26mm. Small enough, but I don't have any way of cutting an accurate chunk easily.

I'm going to be forced to use a hacksaw, and grind to shape.
A bandsaw, vice (also don't have), and drill press would be ideal.
I think I'll ask around tomorrow at work and see if I can use the shop this weekend.
I might just say fuck it, and try and remove the water pump carefully so that I don't break the seal to the timing cover.

OFF-CAMBER
I have all the answers......as long as I get to ask the questions.

imported_n/a
11-20-2003, 03:58 AM
Stick with the serp belt system. you will need to change all the parts that the dealer told you if you want to change back to the V belt system and do the job properly. The bolts and brackets will line up better (as you say you will have to make a bracket up for the alt). You will also have to change the flex plate over if you are changing the ballancer or you will get an engine dammaging vibration. Go to a local you-pull-it and get all the serp stuff. the new style alternators are usually of higher amp rating which is a good thing and the serp system is far better than V belt. Runns smother better load dispersment. You only need to carry one spare belt with you (not that they usually brake or anything) Put all the old stuff in the for sale colum and recoup some of the costs and do the job right. I see more micky fuck stuff comming through my shop that ends up costing 3 times as much as doing it right the first time.
Just my opnion tho...
Randy

FU Toolbag
11-20-2003, 06:04 AM
Again, if your pulling the balancer off, and it sounds like you are, why not pull the timing cover and inspect the guts? give me a call so we can hook up with the other stuff

OKOR[f]
72 super beatle
1 lwb Sammi- 2.4 deisel
1 lwb sammi "avalanch"
1 suzuki lj 80- toy axles, 2.3 turbo power
1 69 tlc- straight frame, 350 power
1 75 tlc-custom everything
1 76 tlc-stock, not for long
1 80 bronko-propane 460-sycadelic.
1 98 FJ40, 4 tones'o'fun

85_GMC_4x4
11-20-2003, 07:57 AM
Gotcha...

Fabing up your own alternator bracket(s) wouldn't have been too hard. Just get one that's close and modify it to fit. But looks like your well on your way to the Vbelt system by now anyway.

85 GMC 3/4T 4x4
7" BDS suspension lift
35" Mickey Thompson Baja Claw Tires
Dual fuel propane/gas
Locked rear axle
Smiley face painted on diff cover

OFF CAMBER

Magna
11-20-2003, 09:33 AM
Yeah...fabbing stuff isn't a big deal....IF you've got the right equipment available.

Things I don't have:
Drill Press
Torch set
Welder
Bench Vise
Bandsaw

All I have is basic hand tools and basic electic stuff...drill, reciprocating saw, grinder.

But it's pretty tough to make something when you can't even cut a good shape (bandsaw, torch) and you have to hold everything with one hand and use the other for the tool.

OFF-CAMBER
I have all the answers......as long as I get to ask the questions.

automan
11-20-2003, 02:12 PM
dumb question,,,,,,where are you located?

Magna
11-20-2003, 05:30 PM
quote:Originally posted by automan

dumb question,,,,,,where are you located?
Kelowna

OFF-CAMBER
I have all the answers......as long as I get to ask the questions.

Magna
11-20-2003, 05:32 PM
quote:Originally posted by okor

Again, if your pulling the balancer off, and it sounds like you are, why not pull the timing cover and inspect the guts? give me a call so we can hook up with the other stuff
Maybe drop by on your way home from work tomorrow. You can make fun of me....I can borrow tools.:D

OFF-CAMBER
I have all the answers......as long as I get to ask the questions.

FU Toolbag
11-20-2003, 08:34 PM
how about sat. New job starting on fri, at least that's the last I've heard.

OKOR[f]
72 super beatle
1 lwb Sammi- 2.4 deisel
1 lwb sammi "avalanch"
1 suzuki lj 80- toy axles, 2.3 turbo power
1 69 tlc- straight frame, 350 power
1 75 tlc-custom everything
1 76 tlc-stock, not for long
1 80 bronko-propane 460-sycadelic.
1 98 FJ40, 4 tones'o'fun